Opportunity and Belonging with Ze Min Xiao

Paul Kuttner:

Hey, welcome to Partnership Work, where we explore the art and science of collaboration. I’m Paul Kuttner.

In today’s interview, I talk with Ze Min Xiao, president and CEO of the Center for Economic Opportunity and Belonging in Utah. Ze founded the center just a few years ago with the goal of building “a Utah where everyone can thrive and belong.” As you’ll hear, that means bringing community leaders and organizations together with the highest levels of state government, businesses, nonprofits, and funders to tackle economic and educational disparities.

Ze shares how her family and her many years working in immigrant and refugee services shaped her belief in putting community wisdom first. She talks about what it takes to build partnerships across lines of faith and political party in deep-red Utah, even on major political lightning rods like immigration. She opens up about the emotional toll this work can take, and where she finds resilience and hope when things are at their bleakest.

Ze doesn’t hold back in her assessment of where things stand right now, but she leaves us with what she says good leaders offer us, a future vision we can work toward together. To start things off, I asked Ze about a recent rafting trip down the Green River.

And one small correction, the organization she worked with to run the rafting trip is called Team Democracy.

I won’t keep you any longer. Here’s my conversation with Ze.

Paul:

Ze Min Xiao, thank you so much for joining me on Partnership Work.

Ze Min Xiao:

Thank you so much for having me, Paul.

Paul:

Before we get into all of your amazing work, I understand that this summer you went on a rafting trip. Why don’t we start off with you just telling me a little bit about what happened on this rafting trip?

Ze:

Okay, so, first and foremost I have to tell you I don’t know how to swim. But this rafting trip came about, and I was like, “I have to do it.” So, this is a little bit background. the Center for Economic Opportunity and Belonging — we just call it the CEOB — one of the important pieces of work we’ve been working on in the past two years is bridging.

We define bridging as bringing two people or two groups of people who have different perspectives together to have conversations. The goal is not to convince someone to believe in what you say or try to turn their belief into yours. The goal of the conversations is just so that you can listen and understand from their perspective and discover a shared humanity as human beings.

So, with this rafting trip, there’s a group called Democracy Now. And it’s fascinating. It was founded by a river rafting guide from somewhere on the East Coast. I don’t remember what state. And he realized that there’s a lot of division and polarization happening. And he thought, “Let’s bring people together on a rafting trip.” Because then you’re in a boat together and you have to rely on each other to survive. I mean, this is a great idea, right?

So what they do is they go around the country and they bring people together on a river. And Utah has some amazing rivers, including the Colorado River and the Green River. They came last year, and this year they reached out to us because we’ve been doing this bridging work, and they wanted us to be a co-sponsor. And part of it is because the conversation they wanted to talk about was immigration, which is another space that we’re engaged in. And it’s an issue that are getting a lot of attention right now and lots of people are having conversations.

So, in August, we brought 26 people, random people that we selected, and we drove to Vernal, Utah. I did not know how far Vernal is, it’s like northeast and next to the Colorado border. We drove three hours there and we rafted down the Green River together with strangers.

And it was phenomenal.

When you’re in the boat together, you have conversations, and one of the passengers, one of the participants said, “It’s just hard to get upset at someone because you’re in front of this majestic background.” For those of you who haven’t been to Utah and haven’t been to a national park, it’s breathtaking. And you are in this boat together and you’re relying on the other person to survive.

We were rafting on category two rapids, and one of our participants in my boat actually fell off the boat and we had to do all that. But that is the point, that it is an opportunity for you to discover our shared humanity as human beings and that at every stage of a society we depend and rely on the other person more than we think we do.

And so we talk about building the social fabrics, in many ways I think that we have lost a lot of opportunities to build those social fabrics that we used to have in the past with the advent of technology, the advent now of AI. We just don’t create those, we don’t prioritize those moments where you’re just getting together, right?

With Robert Putnam’s book, Bowling Alone, he talks about the destruction of that social fabric. When’s the last time you go to join a bowling league to bowl together? The decline of joining the Lions Club or the Rotary Club or, you know, just going into a place together.

And so, part of what I think is important is that we have to be intentional in building those social spaces, those spaces where we can engage and build those social bonds that are necessary.

Paul:

You mentioned that you did this through the Center for Economic Opportunity and Belonging that you founded and lead. Could you just give us sort of the short and sweet version of what this center is and what it does?

Ze:

Yeah, so the Center for Economic Opportunity and Belonging is a 501c3 nonprofit organization located in Salt Lake City, and we provide services statewide. We consider ourselves as a convener agency. What that means is that we don’t provide direct services, so people cannot come to our door and try to get food or get counseling services.

What we do is really understand that in a society, there’s different stakeholders that have to be working together collectively to build the systems, to make sure that people are not being left behind. And those stakeholders also include the community, right? The community who are closest to the disparities.

So, what we do is we look at data and we look at, hey, students are not performing at the level. What is happening here? Who is in that space that is making the decisions? Who is not in the space making decisions? And how do we build a table where we can bring everyone together to co-design the solutions and test them?

So, we say economic opportunity, right, which is really important. But belonging is the other piece that we live on. To us, belonging really is important. It’s a sense of feeling, but it’s a lot more than that. And one of the key pieces of belonging, that you feel like you belong, is the sense of being able to contribute. So that co-creation — being able to be at the table to look at the problem, to be able to work collectively with folks, to plan — is a key component of belonging.

We really harnessed on the word belonging way before it was popular. And we say this is important. And being able to be your authentic self in the process of doing that. So, the center focuses on two areas. We focus on K-12 education and economic mobility, although sometimes there are intersection areas that we also work in.

Paul:

So, you launched the center in its initial form in 2021. What were the experiences that you had prior to that that led you to think that we needed a center like this in Utah?

Ze:

Prior to that I had a 13-year career with Salt Lake County. I worked for three mayors in a space of immigrant and refugee integration. And it’s interesting because I started as a refugee services liaison and refugee resettlement traditionally — things are changing really rapidly, right? — but traditionally, refugee resettlement is a federal responsibility. The federal government hires the resettlement agencies to resettle refugees in a certain community. The state and local government play a limited role, right?

What happened was that they only provide services for the first six months and in some cases up to two years. And that is not enough time, right? So, we see people falling off after that period of time, but yet the local community is not stepping up to really help them build on those other skill sets so they can succeed.

And so this is where a task force was formed back in 2007. They created a list of opportunities on what they need to do, and part of it was hiring a position in the county level and one in the state level. And I had the position in the county level to really carry out: what does that look like?

What that means is that I need to work with people. I need to bring the stakeholders together. I need to understand the ecosystem. I need to be able to say, “This is how it’s functioning right now. This is who is missing in that system.”

That provided me a very great preview into: how do you build relationships? How do you build structures? How do you work across differences? How do you bring people together? And the most important piece of that, the most significant, important stakeholder in that is the refugees themselves.

And so how do you engage with the refugees? How do you build up the capacity so that they can truly be participants, participatory architects in the space of building up the systems that would benefit them and others in that community as well?

So that’s like my beginning, for 13 years I worked for county government, started tons of fun projects together with immigrants and refugees.

And then during the pandemic in 2020, I was tapped by Governor Herbert to co-chair the Unified Economic Commission. There were communities who were disproportionately affected by the pandemic and the aftermath of the pandemic. And the disparities were alarming. The Latino/Hispanic community was affected three times the rate of the general population. Those workers who are not able to work from home are being affected.

So, the disparities are huge. Yet, the state and the leaders didn’t know how to fix it, how to understand: what are the strategies to be able to save lives? And so myself and my brother — I call him my brother — and my sister, Byron Russell and Nubia Peña, we were appointed co-chairs of this commission.

One of the things we learned very immediately is that we need to listen to communities. We don’t know what’s happening on the ground. And the best thing we did was that we brought together the highest level of government and community members on the ground every single Friday. And we talked to them. We just implemented A, B, C, and D strategies with the central command from the state. Yet it’s having opposite effects on what we anticipated. And we provided such an environment that the community is able to speak to them without fear, right? And they listened and they pivoted.

And because of the process of listening, having humility, understanding the community assets and the people who have lived experiences on the ground level to be informing the decisions, changed lives, saved lives.

And so post-pandemic, we thought…

Paul:

Actually, I want to pause first. Tell me a bit about these Fridays. How did you make that happen? how did you bring folks together in a way where they were able to listen and learn from one another?

Ze:

First of all, it’s over Zoom because no one is getting together at the point. So it was all Zoom calls.

We have great relationship with communities, with me being in the community for 13 years. We know leaders. We know community-based leaders. The first thing we did was actually do a survey, an assessment, and ask communities, “What are the gaps?” And through that, we say, “We want to listen to you.” And that is the first step of saying that your voice matters in this process.

So, we continue to build those relationships and we encourage them. We say we want to invite you to be in this call with, sometimes, Commissioner Anderson, who was in charge at the central command at the time. The head of the health department sometimes comes to it. Lieutenant Governor Spencer Cox, at the time, joins the calls.

So, we were able to bring the highest level of decision makers in community with community health workers, faith leaders, nonprofits like the University Neighborhood Partners in the call. And then we set up subcommittees to address different topics.

The key was that we were able to build trust on both sides. As conveners, we built trust with the decision makers on one side and we had trust with the community. And we were able to bridge it together and set a space.

I think it has to be actionable, right? So, you used to sit down and talk and they just listened and didn’t act. Then you lose your trust in the communities. What happens during the pandemic is that you have to act. You have to act, right, to save lives. And so they see immediate impacts. The community who provided their input sees things changing because it has to. Because we are in such a rapid phase.

And that was, I think, one of the very key reasons why it was successful, that people actually see the impacts immediately in their communities.

After the pandemic — it wasn’t the end of the pandemic, but, you know, when things cooled down a little bit — we decided that someone has to be waking up thinking about this. Direct service providers, they’re all so busy to just survive through it. Government is not going to do it. We need an intermediary whose job is really to understand and to bring people together based on data and facts and build those relationships.

So that is how the Center for Economic Opportunity and Belonging was formed. We went into this with three funders and just me, myself — and, of course, a community of supporters who help inform and guide the development of the center and the evolution from beginning to where we are today.

Paul:

I do want to get into some of the projects y’all have been working on, but if you don’t mind, I want to go back a little bit and learn a bit more about you and how sort of what brought you here. So, to start, I’m curious about young Ze Min Xiao. Do you feel like your family or your early experiences helped shape you into the kind of person who wants to be this intermediary and do this kind of partnership work?

Ze:

I think if you asked me when I was little, I would say no. I was really shy. I don’t like to talk. I don’t like attention. Well, maybe that’s why I’m being an intermediary because I don’t have to be at the forefront. But I think that my upbringing really brought me to this place of justice. And building community.

I grew up in rural China. I was raised by a grandma who survived the Cultural Revolution. And a lot of, I think, my resiliency, the way that I hold myself with dignity and respect is because of my grandma. She never gave up hope. I mean, she was a single mom with four kids during the Cultural Revolution, taking on the blame for the whole family. My whole family just left them to take the blame of the family because we were rich. And the Communists came and they were taking away everything. But she was so resilient that she’s able to raise the four kids, all four of them survived through it, but in a way that gives her so much dignity at the same time.

I remember going back after we immigrated. She didn’t want to come. She’s like, “I was born here, I’m going to die here, you want to see me, you come back and see me.” So I used to go back.

And just seeing the level of respect from the neighbors for her, because she’s this really subtle peacekeeper in the community and always keep things — not make it too dramatic and make sure things are stable and calm things down. And I think a lot of my personality came from my grandma’s upbringing.

I think this kind of social justice end of it — from my grandma too, but more so from my parents as they’re immigrants to this country. And growing up, my parents owned these restaurants. And I’ve been working, doing dishes, scooping food since I was like nine years old. Being a cashier, just seeing the injustice that they experienced during that time also really defined who I am and what I want to do.

When I was growing up, I wanted to go to law school. I was like, “I’m going to finish school in three years, get my law degree in a year and a half, and then I’m going to go work at the United Nations and save lives.” But long story short, that didn’t happen. And I’m here in Utah. And so I think that a little bit shaped who I am.

And I think in Utah, too, I had so many mentors. I learned on a constant basis. I learned from individuals who came before me. Judge Raymond Uno really put me under his wings in the very beginning, you know. Archie Archuleta. These are like the legends, right, of Salt Lake, and just seeing how they work.

Archie and Judge Uno never scream. They always bring people to the table. They always build those coalitions. They build, they always see what is possible, right? Not to deny that there are challenges, but you have to, as a leader, you have to find a way to see the positive because others are relying on you to be able to do that.

And I think that is so important. You have to articulate a vision of the future that you’re building together in a way that people can aspire to. If all you talk about is negative, negativity, negativity, how we can fight, fight, fight, fight, you’re not providing that hope. And the journey of the space, you have to, especially if you’re the underdog, you have to provide that hope.

And I think they do it in such a way that really brings people together. They do it in such a way that is not like, “Let’s go and break things down.” Let’s think about how we can build things together. And I think that is a very different perspective than some of the other leaders that are in the community.

And so I want to thank them for teaching me that and having the patience to navigate the spaces that are necessary and also being able to forgive. Judge Uno’s family was put in a camp during World War II. Yet, he fought for the U.S. He went and joined the military. He came back and he became a judge and gave back to the community. It takes a certain level of forgiveness but also temperament, like how do you hold on to those things about yourself that you’re able to continue to survive and give so much of yourself after what is done to you as well?

Paul:

I want to back to your earlier work in this area. I think one of the first big projects that you were a part of that was kind of in the same vein as the work you’re doing now in terms of convening and bridging was the Utah Compact. I was hoping you could share a bit about what the Utah Compact was for folks outside of Utah and the role you played in it.

Ze:

I want to say that the first version of the Utah Compact, I played a very small role in it. I played a bigger role in the renewal of the compact in 2017. So just want to make sure that’s communicated.

But the Utah Compact is a document. This was early 2000s, and there was a wave of anti-immigration sentiment throughout the United States, especially in Arizona at the time. And Utah leaders were like, “We do not want to be like that.” They could see it coming this way, like the wind is coming.

So it was a group of business leaders, faith leaders, who got together. And for those of you who are not in Utah, I think Utah is relatively unique in the sense of who we are and how we position ourselves in the nation. As a pretty conservative red state, our take on immigration has been different.

I think that Utahns, especially those who’ve been here for multiple generations, that came over as part of the wave of the Mormon pioneers that came through the plains and settled in here, they see their journey and their story as an immigrant story. And so when you see all this rhetoric and policies that are affecting immigrants, they’re like, “Wait a minute, that could have been us. We have to be different because of our history.”

And so that kind of frames it. And what is interesting is that the document was really value-based. They talk about “These are Utah values,” right? They believe in strong family, free economy, the obedience of law and law order, and that immigration is a federal policy so that the state should not pass any laws.

What was so great about that particular document, the Utah Compact on Immigration, was that that set the tone of how our leaders proceed with immigration. Since that document was signed, any time there’s an anti-immigration legislation come up in the state legislature, it was like, “No, we cannot touch that. That is against the values that we set aside. This is the standard of how we approach immigration.”

But I play a role, a much stronger role — I was in the county at that time, in 2017 — of a renewal of the compact, just to remind people how important it is. We’re actually working on another version of that right now. It’s not the Utah Compact of Immigration anymore. It’s actually a campaign called the Utah We Believe In. Again, it’s the same thing, providing a positive future that people can lean onto that is that centers around our shared values.

But again, that has to be a bipartisan effort. It’s not about politics. It’s, you know, regardless of your ideology on certain points, those are shared values that I think we all can agree on. Right?

Paul:

So, living under the original compact, being part of the renewal, starting to work on this new version, what lessons have you learned about bringing people together across difference along the way?

Ze:

A couple of things I think that I am observing and that is important to me as we put together this new version — I’m not going to call it a compact — new campaign to bring people together.

One is that I think the last two versions did not involve communities at the community level. It was mostly decision makers. And I think that you have to balance it, right? Community engagement is important, but that is an ongoing process where you should be building those community relationships before you act on a campaign like this. And so for folks who haven’t done this work in the community with communities, I think that they need to find someone who has those connections and understands the community because starting from scratch does not work. So, I think that’s one lesson, that we have to engage the community more.

The other one is that that pioneer story is not the only story. The pioneer story is one story of many stories in Utah. And I’m more specifically referring to the Indigenous community who has been here. Then the fact that this actually was a Mexican territory before it became the United States. The border crossed the people. The people did not cross the border.

So those are multiple stories that we have to be able to acknowledge and share, but also do it in a way that is…everything has to be balanced. You have to be very intentional in terms of how you move forward to build consensus, move forward on a campaign like this.

And a couple of thoughts that I share with my team on this. One is that it’s going to be difficult to please everyone at all times. And that should not prevent you from doing the work, right? I think people are just like, “I can’t do anything because I can’t please anyone.” The urgency requires you make decisions, tough decisions, and it’s important for you to understand that when you make those decisions you understand the consequences, right?

You have to be okay and say, “I make this consequence. I knew coming into this, that this is going to be something that is going to hurt one community.” But how are you going to support those communities and help them understand, “This is why I make the decision?”

So, it’s about transparency. It’s about being able to explain why you make the decision. It’s about building those relationships so that when you tell someone about it, you know, they might be mad at you, but they understand where you’re coming from and how we can work, like this is not the end, right? Everything is evolving. It’s evolving all the time.

And so, you might not please everyone at the moment that you launch this, but it’s important that you’re engaging with those communities, helping them understand why you make the decision you’re making. And how we might be able to work to address some of those gaps that you have.

I think that is a really important piece. I think one thing that we want to be very cautious on is the unintended consequences. I think that the known consequences, you could prevent, you could address those. It’s the unintended consequence because you forgot to ask yourself, “Oh, I haven’t thought about it that way.” That causes more harm in the community.

Paul:

Coming back to today, can you tell us about one or two other projects that you’ve been involved in through the center?

Ze:

Yeah, one that I’m just so proud of, and really I’m on the sidelines, is the Young Professionals Bonding and Bridging Group.

Paul:

What’s that?

Ze:

It all started, we brought a scholar from UC Berkeley here for a conversation. A guy named Dr. john powell from UC Berkeley, the director of the Othering and Belonging Institute. We brought him here and I said to john, “Could you meet with a group of young leaders in the community? Because they’re needing some direction.”

And he actually changed his plane ticket, he was teaching a class at Berkeley, and was late to his class so that he could meet with this group of about 18 young professionals. And he inspired them to form this group called the Young Professionals Bonding and Bridging Group.

It started with 20, and now it’s close to 250 young professionals. And they define young professionals as anyone who’s, I think, 18 to like 35. So, I’m not allowed to join.

But it’s been so amazing to see how they’re able to grow. The work that they center on is about bridging. They intentionally try to bring people of differences together. As the future, it gives me hope, especially in the past year where we’re seeing so much division. All we talk about is “Let’s other the other person, let’s other them.” And having a new set of leaders who are coming in to say, “Maybe we should think differently. Maybe you guys are doing this wrong, when you’re building divisions, when you do all this, it’s harming the future.” And they’re like, we need to do something differently. It’s powerful.

So, they convened after our events last month. Actually, there’s an event at the Alta Club. And for those of you who don’t know, Alta Club is like the men’s prestigious club in Salt Lake. Women and people of color were not allowed to go in there for a long, long time. And so for this group of very diverse young professionals to host an event there, was very telling and it was really fun because many of them don’t know what it is or its history.

And, you know, they’re really interested in civic engagement. They’re really interested in just being leaders in the community. And so that has been just so great for me to see.

A member of my team, Bailey Rivera-Wymes, and a member of a partner’s team, which is the Division of Multicultural Affairs, co-leads that, and both of them are young professionals. And what they have indicated to us is that there’s a lot of support in colleges, universities. You have clubs, you have things. The minute you graduate, you lose that. So they need an environment where they can bring people together and they created this.

So that’s very exciting. And it gives me optimism for the future. It’s like, “You guys need to leave out now.” The world is a mess. And it’s our fault that we put you in a mess.

Paul:

So you move between a lot of different spaces, working with the governor, working with the nonprofit sector, working with businesses and funders, working with community groups. I don’t quite know how to ask the question, but how do you do that? Like, what makes you able to move between those places and gain the kind of trust that you were talking about?

Ze:

I think just being very authentic, right? I mean, I might use different words differently, but I don’t think I present myself differently in any of those spaces. I’m still myself. And I think that is really important because people trust you if you show up as yourself.

And so, you know, whether I’m talking to the governor, I’m talking to a community advocate, I want to make sure that I’m still me. I mean, there’s things that you have to nuance, right? Especially in certain spaces, you kind of have to do that. But I think that first and foremost is be true to yourself.

And second is that it’s not easy. You get headaches. And so it’s not for the faint of heart. And there are some times where I am in meetings where I’m the minority. I am a woman of color in Utah who speaks with an accent. And that comes with a lot of, I think people see you very differently and you’re constantly needing to prove yourself on what you do. But it’s about also resiliency to continue to step in and say, I’m going to go back. It’s about patience. It’s about forgiveness that some of my mentors have taught me long ago.

And it’s just like, try not to take it. too personally. Even so, you can tell yourself that, but it’s hard, right? Last week, I was in a cohort learning leadership thing, and I’m not an emotional person. I am very good at holding on to my emotions, not showing it. And the first question they ask is, how are you doing? And out of nowhere, I just start sobbing and crying.

It was an emotional week last week with everything that went on in Utah. And I couldn’t control it. And I was like, this never, ever, ever…oh, one time that happened to me was during the pandemic where people were dying and I was just like out of it and I was screaming at people. But I never have done that before.

But all that to say is that this is not easy work. And what I have learned is that you have to find a level of balance and it’s okay to be vulnerable sometimes. It took me a long time to be okay with the vulnerabilities.

Paul:

Wow, thank you. Just one last question. Right now, the divisions between us are very much at the forefront of people’s minds. You know, political violence and, I mean, there’s just so many examples. People are really feeling disconnected. You talked about the importance of hope early on in our conversation. What is giving you hope in this context right now?

Ze:

I truly believe that we have the power to build a community that we believe in. And there are setbacks, right? What we’re seeing all around us, that’s the threat to freedom of speech, freedom of association, like all of the concrete things.

What gives me hope is that we’re still here. And we still have the power to continue to work on what we think is right because if we don’t we’re just going to be giving up and that is not an option. And I believe in humanity enough that I think we can survive through this.

I think what’s more important is that…I’m trying to be very…I don’t want to use the word optimism because I think it’s been overused. But a friend told me one time, I was like, “This is terrible. Everything is dismantled. Systems are broken apart.” And he writes me, he’s like, “Many of those systems actually were not working for people in the first place. So instead of thinking that you have to build it to the system maybe this is an opportunity to invite people who have never been at the table to build the new system that actually works for everyone.” So instead of seeing it as this dismantling, maybe you can see it as an opportunity to rebuild it better.

So that resonated with me. What keeps me up at night though is that, through this process, there are lots of families and individuals who will be the victims. They have to sacrifice, and those will tend to be the ones — I’ll be okay you probably will be okay too, Paul, right? — But we know that a lot of families are not going to be okay. And I think that is what keeps me up all the time.

I could be optimistic. I hope I could see this in a different way than what we’re seeing right now, but also acknowledge that through this process, while we are rebuilding there’s a lot of families who’s going to be hurt from it. And what do we need to do at the same time that we’re rebuilding the system to minimize the harm as much as possible?

And that is hard. That is very hard to do.

Paul:

Thank you so much for such a thoughtful, engaging interview. I just really enjoyed talking.

Ze:

No, thank you for the opportunity. And it’s great to talk to you.

Paul:

Thank you all for joining me today. To see the episode transcript and show notes, head over to partnershipwork.org. While you’re there, you can sign up for our free Substack newsletter, where we’ll be sharing updates, essays, book reviews, and more. If you like the show, please rate and review us wherever you get your podcasts. That’s one of the best ways for us to find our audience.

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wonderful organization Urban Media Arts here in my home town of Malden Massachusetts. Check them out at urbanmediaarts.org. See you next time. Take care.